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Discussion Starter · #41 · (Edited)
Swappable batteries: Will swapping out electric car batteries catch on?

or a start, the customer is not buying the most expensive bit of an electric car - the battery. That knocks around £7,700 ($9,700) off the purchase price.

Swapping batteries means you will always have the latest tech, says Nio's Marius Hayler
A buyer then has to factor-in the monthly subscription for the battery, which ranges from £120 to £215, depending on the size of the battery.
But with that cost comes another advantage. "You're always going to have the newest battery technology," explains Mr Hayler.

For some of us, the fear of buying a car with battery tech that's going to be rapidly outdated is real.

I recall Tesla tried this approach and gave up - the infrastructure costs would have been even more scary than the network of super-chargers they have already rolled out.
 
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I recall Tesla tried this approach and gave up.
That's also how most if not all Renault Zoe's were offered IIRC back from 2013 for a few years. Did Nissan also toy with the idea but quickly dropped it or am I~ misremembering?

It just doesn't seem to be a popular or cost-effective approach with EV buyers.

And this Nio kite-flying doesn't seem to be well thought -through. If there were to be a seriously new-tech battery then it's not just the battery that would need to be changed. At the very least the car would need new software installed to cater for the altered charging & discharging characteristics of the new battery. And more likely new inverter circuitry etc would also be needed. An EV battery is not like a AA battery - you don't swap it different makes in and out ad lib - the electronics of the whole car are tailored to the particular battery characteristics. IOW it's an integrated system.
 

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EV's are in their infancy and battery technology has not caught up with the application. Over the next five to ten years the battery technology will evolve to address some of the current issues but will never address all the issues. Repairing the current patchwork quilt is not a viable option. Batteries will always be geopolitical, currently over 50% of the battery components come from or are processed by China. Now how about this for an independent solution, hydrogen. It is in the air, it is in the sea and no one owns it. Sadly, politicians have gone on a pure EV mission limiting the scalability of the vehicle. Fortunately, for my daughters generation, the politicians will be forced to change direction.
 

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Discussion Starter · #44 ·
I've been aware of Nio for a while now, clearly an interesting company to watch. Just as Tesla appeared from nowhere, no previous history in the automotive industry and became a pilot of disruptive technology, other, perhaps more established brands in their home markets will surely follow. The current crop of EV's have genuine real-world ranges of circa 250 miles, where as ICE car with a tank of fuel will be good for 500+ (unless its an RSQ3 😢).

Now I know that almost no-one does even 250 miles without a break so in truth it's a mute point, however for those without a garage or at least a drive to hook a charger up to the car the current EV options are a non-starter for most (not withstanding the cost of the things). There is an underlying, currently untapped, market for on-street parking drivers.

There are early adopters amongst us who are on the edge of taking the plunge, fearful that the associated technologies are moving so rapidly that vehicles will effectively lose resale value even faster than that of a gas guzzler in a market of record high fossil fuel pump prices. We can see it taking place now, Audi's first E-TRON models (based on an already heavy Q7), have a real-world range of 150-170 miles and are in plentiful supply from dealers and the non-franchised trade....the next gen EVs, i.e Ev6 and Ioniq and even the Mustang Mach-e are in the rocking horse droppings class for obtainability.
 

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Listened to a Podcast yesterday with the CEO of the new Giga factory up in Newcastle. He suggested ranges of 500miles will be common by 2030 which would suggest the resale values of todays models will plummet after 2-3yrs of ownership.
 

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A market opportunity then for upgrading old EV's to ones with the new battery technology and ancillary components.
 

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Got my Genesis GV60 EV test drive booked for next Wednesday, Sport Plus model. They're bringing the car to me for a 2-hour slot. Let me know if it's of any interest here and I'll report back.

NB GV60 is a somewhat more premium version of the Hyundai Ioniq 5 or Kia EV6 for those unfamiliar, and made by Hyundai.

Edit: Sorry, I should have included a Genesis website link: GV60 - Genesis Motor Europe
 

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I have to say, the Mustang EV in the right colour looks a tolerable thought but reality may make that a daft idea.
 

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Discussion Starter · #49 ·
Got my Genesis GV60 EV test drive booked for next Wednesday, Sport Plus model. They're bringing the car to me for a 2-hour slot. Let me know if it's of any interest here and I'll report back.

NB GV60 is a somewhat more premium version of the Hyundai Ioniq 5 or Kia EV6 for those unfamiliar, and made by Hyundai.
Always interested PWS, please let us know.
 

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Wheel Tire Vehicle Car Grille


OK, so I had a test drive of a Genesis GV60 for around 90 minutes on Wednesday. The GV60 is a full battery EV. The car was brought to my house by the regional (East Anglia) rep. It was what's called the Sport Plus trim in the UK, ie the max power 4WD version (0-62 ca 4.0 sec). My test car was in what's called Himalayan Grey (a dark grey, which may be called Carbon Metal in some markets) and with the white interior. (Picture above is a stock photo - not my test car)

Genesis may be an unfamiliar brand in the UK but it is the premium brand of Hyundai, much as Lexus is to Toyota. So the GV60 is a sister car to eg the Hyundai Ioniq 5 or Kia EV6 and shares much of the same underpinnings and EV drivetrain etc. Unusually, it is a little smaller than its two sister cars coming in at around 4.5m (which is a size I personally like). It would be a direct competitor to the Audi Q4 though performance of the GV60 is distinctly better. for the high-end trim. There are 3 main trims in the UK: Premium (which bizarrely is the base trim and is RWD only); Sport (4WD); and Sport Plus as sport but with more power). Prices cover quite a broad range from ca £45K to £75K depending obviously on trim and options. I haven't tried cross-comparing in detail but suspect that this isn't too dissimilar to the Q4.

As with its two sister cars, the GV60 has an 800v architecture, which means that on a suitable charger (eg at a GridServe location) it can do 10-80% charge in a quoted 18 minutes.

I tested it on mostly local roads rather than high-speed motorways because that's where I do most driving and the quality of local roads around where I live is poor because it's fen country and the road surface is very prone to frequent subsidence, giving many ripples and undulations that are difficult to spot in advance. So checking the ride quality on such roads was important.

Basically, the car was everything that I anticipated - comfortable, spacious and quick. I had been thinking of opting for the middle Sport model because it has 20" wheels as standard rather than the 21" and so I was thinking that the 20" might give a better ride around here, but actually the 21" wheels gave a perfectly acceptable ride. (The car did have the Dynamic Chassis Control (DCC) or whatever Genesis call it.) So the ride was perhaps somewhat on the firm side, but comparable to my present Q3 45TFSI and so reasonably acceptable. The car also seemed very quiet on the road.

Seats were the Comfort option (so every conceivable seat option, including cooling & massage, with the seat bolsters tightening automatically in Sport mode and (I think) a little more when selecting the boost button - 10 secs of extra power) and were excellent, at least over the duration of my test drive. Cabin was well-appointed and spacious. Only slight demerit was that the boot/trunk didn't seem especially big; I'd say that the rear seat space and legroom has been prioritised at the expense of boot space. And the hatch roofline does rather swoop down - it's definitely a Sportback rather than regular in Q3 terms, so limiting height near the hatch. This isn't a big deal for me, but might be for anyone needing a lot of boot space.

I didn't take to the white interior and especially to the white steering wheel and boot walls (which I think could mark up quite quickly), but that's maybe just me. I wish there was a dark grey interior option, but there isn't. My test car didn't have a sunroof, but I would definitely spec one with an all-black interior.

The style of the big main displays I won't comment on much because this is very much down to personal preferences and taste. I would say definitely a premium finish, albeit perhaps with too much silvery metallic looking buttons (though not on the scale of some Merc dashes). I probably would have preferred something subtler (eg a Volvo interior) but I know that's not usually the Asian way. But suspect that I would be perfectly happy living with the interior (but with black trim).

My car did have the camera side mirrors. Difficult to comment on these TBH. On an initial drive, you are of course always looking in the wrong place (ie at the camera outside rather than the display on the inside of each door). I suspect that you would quickly adapt, but if you often also drive a car with 'conventional' mirrors as well then switching from one to the other might be more troublesome. It's an option I won't be ordering!

There are so many features and switches in a modern premium car that I didn't even try to check out what they all did, what all the display configurations might have been etc, beyond those that I actually needed for driving. (I was more interested in how the car drove out on the road than familiarising myself with all the features.) But I'm sure that they would all become pretty familiar within a few days of owning the car. The HUD was good and clear. The only slight downside is that there's no local dealer at all with a demo car that I can just go and sit in and play eg with the display controls. (To repeat, distribution is the UK is all done centrally and not through dealers.)

Performance was excellent as one might expect for a powerful modern EV., perhaps on a par with RSQ3 up to 70-80mph, though I'm sure the RS would pull away after that, but I haven't seen any direct comparison figures yet The boost button is actually quite powerful and induces some significant torque steer if you activate it during a manoeuvre like overtaking so that's something to be wary of. But I'm sure that one would quickly adjust to that. I had the regen on max throughout and I found that fine for 1-pedal type driving - quite easy to use without throwing the passengers around too much.

In fact the boost button is tempting me towards te Sport Plus rather than plain Sport (it's only available with the Plus trim). OK, it's fun. But there's also another reason: one of my concerns in moving from a fossil car to a full EV is the lack of interaction with the car other than steering and power/braking control - it's sort of losing a skill-set which I wonder if I might miss using? But the boost button just gives a small element of extra control back to the driver.

The one big negative for me is that there's no wireless Apple Carplay available - it is cabled only. I've got used to having wireless and while the cable isn't a huge deal, it does rather feel like stepping back in time. That said, no car is perfect.

The other thing to bitch about in the UK is that the standard seats have no heated seats option other than going for the full comfort seats, which is $$$.

Sales are still telling me to expect delivery of a factory order in 4-5 months, which is surprisingly short for a custom order these days and an enticement in itself.

I'm still considering whether to proceed with the order and, if so, whether to pay the extra for the Sport Plus model. In all probability I will go ahead, but just giving myself another few days of thinking time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #51 ·
Thanks for the feedback PWS. appreciated.

On the Wireless front - there is probably a Wireless adaptor available, I'm in the Android camp and MIB2 on the Q3 ought to be a cable - I bought a crowd-funded gizmo 'AA Wireless' which does the deed for me.

With the RSQ3 engine debacle still in play the option of switching to an EV is under serious consideration - got dangerously close to pressing the button on an ex-stock Mustang Mach e GT a couple of weeks ago - glad I didn't now as I heard last night there is a global recall for almost every Mach e ever made due to battery over-heating. The perils of being an early adopter I guess.

Q6 will be launched later this year, will sit on the fence a bit longer.
 

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Oh dear re Mustang. They are reasonably popular round here so that won’t do much for sales.

We had a Hyundai Santa Fe in Canada for about 3000 miles in three weeks and, apart from it being huge, we really liked it - dangerous drivers door mirror blind spot was lethal though.

Your price range is horrendous though. As we only do around 5k a year, the cost to our pension pot would be way too much to justify ANY worthwhile EV at the moment, even used.
 

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EV? I feel more comfortable going through the transition first, I mean going hybrid. My Q5 is on a ship from Mexico and with a fair wind I will take delivery in about two months.
 
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During my protracted stay on this planet I have seen many cars I would dearly love to own , a few nice ones I have owned. Perhaps nostalgia , Perhaps love of the shape or mechanical sophistication . That is why I am an avid viewer of bangers and cash on the box . Just can't see myself ever drooling over any soulless EV despite it having acceleration as its main selling point. I know I am a dinosaur but when I make my final journey I'm making it known I would like it to be in a 6 cylinder Jag , not an EV hearse
 

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I remember saying the same sort of thing when a local undertaker had a Ford Scorpio hearse. :oops: :oops:
What a dreadful way to go on your last journey?
 
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Yes, I do understand the reticence about going full EV. More than anything, you do lose the soundtrack. But I think that anyone who drives an auto has already lost part of their mechanical interaction with the car (unless you make frequent use of manual mode or paddles, but the most I usually do is to switch back and forth between Sport and Comfort/normal modes. And I can do the same in the GV60, where changing mode to Sport or using the Boost button causes the seat bolsters to squeeze a little tighter as physical feedback, as well as the usual Sport performance/suspension things of course). And nearly always I have music or radio playing, which covers most of the engine noise.

Personally, I've tried to keep up with new EVs as they come to market and I'm happy to make the move now. TBH it's not very different from driving a fossil car and I think you soon get used to the different drivetrain and grow to like it. I'm sure that sometimes I'll appreciate the lack of background noise, the immediacy of the acceleration, the ease of one-pedal driving, being able to start each day with a full tank of gas, the lower running costs and so on. This might be the last new car I ever buy, who knows, and I'd like to experience owning an EV. Yes, it's a little bit of a gamble, but think I've played safe for too long. It definitely feels like the next stage of my car-owning journey, which I should embrace and enjoy. Maybe there will be some issues along the way, who knows? But very possibly, like many EV owners, I'll never look back.

And, actually, I really don't think it's much of a gamble. New EVs have reached a certain state of maturity now. I can't see battery technology improving much in the next several years, except incrementally (and that's true of all car tech whether fossil or EV). Nor can I see hydrogen cars really becoming a thing in the next 5, maybe 10 years (unless someone can invent a cheap and efficient way of making and distributing 'green' hydrogen, and that really doesn't seem very likely at the moment).
 

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@PWS did you notice what sort of average efficiency (miles per kw/h) your we getting in the GV60
 

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@PWS did you notice what sort of average efficiency (miles per kw/h) your we getting in the GV60
Well, I think it was around 2.8-.3.0. But you have to remember that even though I was not doing a lot of high-speed runs, I was playing with the max acceleration quite a bit, including liberal use of the Boost button, which takes max torque up to 700Nm IIRC. So it wasn't a fair indication of my likely real-world ownership figures.

The two places that I tend to look for a good indication of consumption and range are the US EPA figures and also the EV Database figures. (Things like the WLTP data are obviously hopeless). The GV60 Sport Plus figures are at: Genesis GV60 Sport Plus . So this is saying between 223 - 453 Wh/mi depending, as ever, on circumstances. The nominal average figure is 322Wh/mile (roughly 3.1 mile/kWh), which I think is about par for the course for almost all modern EVs of similar performance and weight. That said, there's no doubt that Tesla have some special sauce or maybe the most experience of any EV maker and can often get closer to 4 miles/kWh as an overall average. Trouble is there isn't a Tesla that I specially like. Model 3 is pug ugly IMO and everything else is too big for me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #59 ·
And the Model 3 derived Model Y took ugliness to previously uncharted territory...
 
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I’m not actually bothered about the lack of engine noise, much as I like the RS and Triumph sound but the corresponding increase in road and wind noise is more concerning. As I mentioned before, the Tesla taxi we had in Hong Kong had terrible tyre noise even though the quiet travel was actually quite pleasant.
One thing, other than recharge time, not range, is the proliferation of 50” tv’s for dashboards and centre consoles and tech for techs sake.
 
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